Democrats in the Legislature are outnumbered and complain that their ideas and legislation are often marginalized simply because they are in the minority party, but they say their strongest asset is on the Ninth Floor, working to make sure their voices are heard.
Democrat leaders Linda Aguirre and Phil Lopes have the difficult task of leading caucuses — in the Senate and the House, respectively — that are at a significant numbers disadvantage but needing to oppose legislation they see as harmful to the state. There are 18 Republicans and 12 Democrats in the Senate and 39 Republicans and 21 Democrats in the House.
In a Dec. 28 interview, Ms. Aguirre and Mr. Lopes sat down with Arizona Capitol Times and explained how they manage to lead undermanned caucuses, as well as their thoughts on English language learner legislation and how politics are affected by election years.
Now that the judge has issued his ruling, what will happen with Flores≠
Aguirre: Well, obviously, we’ve got a directive that, if we don’t act within the first 15 days, the state’s going to get sanctioned. Initially, I was real excited about the ruling. [Now] I think I’m a little disappointed [the judge] didn’t give us a little bit more meat to the ruling. If he could have given us a little bit more guidance, I think we’d be ahead of the game.
Now, the games have started to be played. The Republicans have said that within the first five days [of session] they’re going to file the exact same piece of legislation with some tweaking — and I don’t know what that means. It’s going to go to the governor. The only intent there, as far as we’re concerned, is to have her veto it again and blame her for any assessment that comes against the state, instead of dealing with the issue, instead of looking at how we can really settle this thing.
And we tried. As Democrats, we were at the table and we tried to negotiate something with them, but they really did not negotiate with us. I’m not going to, and my caucus is not going to vote for a piece of legislation just to embarrass the governor and that’s my greatest fear of what’s going to happen now, that they’re not going to do this right. They’ve never met with school districts — I understand they’re out there now, trying to do that after the fact, but what I’ve heard is that they’ve gone to the upper-performing schools and that doesn’t do anybody any good. They need to go to the districts that need the funds and know how the funds are being utilized.
They’re totally convinced they can do it with just the federal funds and that’s just not going to happen. If that’s really their intent, to send a bill up in the first five days, then that’s a shame — shame on them, for not really sitting down and negotiating. Even if they didn’t want to negotiate with the Democrats, they should sit down with the policy-makers and the schools and find out what they really need and why they’re saying they cannot afford for Flores not to be funded at the level that we’re asking for.
Lopes: I can’t add anything to that, except to underline or repeat what Senator Aguirre said regarding their intent is not really to solve the problem — it’s to do other political machinations. There’s still not, in my view, a sincere effort at really trying to solve the problem.
And the other point I wanted to make is also part of that. It’s going to be interesting to see how seriously they take these fines, because when the threat was to take away highway funds, they didn’t think it was serious. And if they have that same reaction to this, then there’s really no stick there, no carrot, whatever the analogy is, to get them to do anything.
Aguirre: I think they’re convinced that the judge can’t do it, that he has no authority over us.
Lopes:And if that’s the case, then they don’t have to do anything.
There’ve been some rumors that the governor might not sign the GOP plan but let it become law, just so the courts can make the final decision. Do you see something like that being a likely outcome≠
Aguirre: You know, knowing the governor and the inherent problems that come with that, you’re waiting another year to a year-and-a-half for appeals and for the judge to act, and that’s another year or two years down the road the kids aren’t getting services. And I don’t think the governor — I mean, it’ll be her call — but I think, with everything else, when she looks at the kids not being served, she’s not going to let that happen.
Lopes: Another way of saying that is, she knows what needs to be done to fix this, what needs to be done in order to serve those kids that we’ve neglected all these years, and I just don’t think she’s going to let anything by that doesn’t respond to that.
Do you think that there is some sort of a bipartisan compromise that can be reached between your caucuses and the Republicans and the governor on this issue, or is there just such a philosophical difference that there’s really nothing that can be done≠
Aguirre: We tried really hard last year. The Democrats sincerely came to the table and we came with some negotiated positions and we backed off from where we were at and we really tried. We saw no effort on their part, no matter what you hear from the Republican side that they tried to negotiate with us and we were stubborn and we wouldn’t move. We came back with five different proposals to them. They really [dismissed] every one of those — I don’t believe they even looked at any of the counter proposals that we made.
So, I don’t think they’re interested in negotiating. Well, I say that’s true for the House. I think in the Senate, I think there are members of the Republican Party that would like us to sit down and negotiate and get something done.
I think it’s an embarrassment for the Legislature as a whole, even Democrats are trying to do what we believe is right for children, we get painted with a broad brush. When you guys say, ‘The Legislature has enacted; the state is being assessed,’ it’s all of us that get painted with that broad brush. So, I think some of their members are uncomfortable with that and would like to see something negotiated, but I just don’t think that’s going to happen.
Will this being an election year influence how the majority party handles the issue≠
Lopes: Is that a rhetorical question≠
No. I can’t imagine any politician — Republican or Democrat — wants to face his or her constituents in an election year and say, ‘We’re paying millions of dollars in fines because we, as a group, couldn’t get together and agree on something.’
Lopes: I think we will look stupid.
Aguirre: Yep. All of us.
Lopes: How can we, we legislators — this is what the public will say: ‘How can you fritter away the public’s money on these silly fines because you can’t agree on something.’ And you can’t argue against that. That’s pretty common-sensical stuff. You’re faced with this huge hammer and you can’t do anything to keep the hammer from falling on you≠
Aguirre: Yeah, I think that’ll go harder against us than the governor.
Really≠ Why≠
Aguirre: Because she’s already said that she’s not going to sign a bill that doesn’t meet the needs of children. So, to send her a bill that, in her mind’s eye, doesn’t do that, then she looks justified. We look silly when we haven’t sent her a proposal that would do that.
Besides settling Flores, what are the other priorities for the Democrats this session≠
Aguirre: I think one of our other top priorities this session is a state employee pay package. I know that’s at the top of the Senate list and the House list, too. For me, personally, it’s also completing the cycle of funding full-day kindergarten and finally getting all the kids into that.
Lopes: Those are all on our list, too, but so is the medical school, making sure that continues. Also on our list is increasing the size of the financial aid principal, because from the principal comes the interest, from which financial aid is given to college students.
The other one that is on our list is adequate reimbursement to childcare providers.
Childcare subsidies≠
Lopes: Yeah, because inadequate reimbursement to providers results in less services for women and families — working families that, if they don’t have that service, they can’t work. So, it violates all that “welfare reform” was supposed to do because we were supposed to make it easier for people to get back to work, but if you can’t provide affordable childcare, it can’t happen.
With the logistical deficits your two caucuses face being in the minority, how difficult is it to be effective and what do you have to do≠
Aguirre: I think that in the Senate, it’s a little bit different than in the House.
Lopes: Are you saying easier or different≠ (Laughing)
Aguirre: Easier, different… That’s why a run for the House for me [in 2006] is like, ‘Oh, my gosh!’
We have, in the Senate, established relationships for many, many years. Most of us have been working together for many years. We’ve seen the time when we had the 15-15 split [in 2001-02] and we’re a little bit more accustomed to working together.
Is there still that division of Republicans rule≠ Yeah, there is, I’m not going to ever turn a blind eye to that. But, I’m finding that a lot of members will work with my members and we do get legislation out and there’s still that camaraderie. If you have a good idea and a Republican joins you on that issue, there’s a likelihood that we could get some things passed.
I think in the House, term limits have really done a disservice to us in that you don’t have that kind of camaraderie and long-term relationships where you learn to work with each other. A lot of that still exists in the Senate and I don’t see it existing too much in the House.
Lopes: And it’s not only long-term relationships, but it’s attitude.
Aguirre: Respect.
Lopes: Here in the House, the numbers are so skewed that we’re just totally ignored. And I don’t say that lightly because it’s not fun to be totally ignored, but last year, when they said, we not only want 31 votes on the budget, but we want 31 Republicans on the budget — and they achieved it! I have to hand it to them — that was the most explicit way they could say to us Democrats that you don’t count and we don’t care.
So, that’s what we’re facing. The only strategy that will work in that kind of milieu is, when there is something really nasty and really bad, there will be enough moderate Republicans that will vote with us and we can stop it, TABOR being the best example from last year.
Aguirre: I think what helps us, also, is that we have standing meetings with the president. So, we bring issues to him and I think President Bennett, in all fairness — they shut us out on the budget issues, but they wanted their 16 and 31, as Phil said, and they did achieve that — but on other issues, because of the moderate Republicans in the Senate, and, again, the working relationships, helps smooth some of that out.
But I think this coming year may be even more difficult, even for us in the Senate, and that’s because it’s an election year and they’re looking at gaining some seats. They’re looking at taking over and veto-proofing this Legislature, so it may be a different game for us this time.
Lopes: And the veto-proofing, generally speaking, that’s also a major focus, in addition to embarrassing the governor on wedge issues regarding the governor’s race, because unless they can come up with a more credible candidate, they can’t win the governor’s race. That’s becoming more and more clear. So, if they can’t do that, the next best thing is to have a veto-proof Legislature.
So, as far as wedge issues, what sort of things do you see coming down the pike, things that won’t get passed into law that she’ll veto≠
Lopes: Whether they get passed or she vetoes them or not, either way in some instances they could be an embarrassment to her. And immigration bills are going to be the first ones. They’re already circulating or have been introduced, because that’s where they see that she’s vulnerable. I think they’re wrong about that, but that’s where they see an opening.
The gay marriage initiative on the ballot is going to be another one that they’re going to try and manipulate somehow. So, that’s two examples of things that I think they’re going to do to try and influence that race.
Aguirre: And tuition tax credits. That one’s already on the fast track to get up to her the first week, we hear, along with Flores. I think that’s another one where they’re going to test her. She vetoed it [last year] primarily because they didn’t keep a promise to work with Democrats on the Flores issue and that was all packaged. And, even though they’re saying it wasn’t, everything we were told from day one is that it was.
What other things have you heard the Republicans are looking at introducing this year that is particularly important to your caucuses≠
Aguirre: I think they want to do a big tax relief package — that’ll probably be one of the wedge issues. “We (Republicans) tried to give the taxpayers some relief but the Democrats and the governor didn’t allow that to happen.” We have a surplus and we may be looking at some of that down the road, but first we’ve got to meet the needs of the state. And once we’ve met all the needs of our state, then if there are some tax relief issues out there or some money to give, I think we could take a stand on that.
Initially, they’re going to come out, screaming and hollering that, ‘We want to give all this money back to our people,’ and, at the beginning, I don’t think that’s feasible until we’ve met the needs of Arizona. We’re catching up now, but we’ve got some backfill.
I’d like to look at some small business tax issues, as well. They’re the backbone of this state and we need to start giving them some tax relief.
Last session there was talk of requiring larger companies whose workers are on state-subsidized health care — Wal-Mart jumps to mind — to reimburse the state for that cost. Any plans to do something similar this year≠
Aguirre: I think there are some members who are looking at that, but I’m not sure who in my caucus is.
Lopes: There are in my caucus, too. We’ve got members looking at two things. One, just simply reporting how many people on AHCCCS are employed. And then there’s the version that says that, once you know that, you need to reimburse the state for AHCCCS.
That’s a fairness issue. It’s not fair for Wal-Mart — or whoever, I didn’t mean to name Wal-Mart specifically. It’s simply not fair for them not to provide health care insurance to their employees who happen to be eligible for the public program. It’s not fair to the rest of us, because we’re paying those bills.
How does an election year affect the way things work on a day-to-day basis around the Legislature≠ What impact will it have on this session≠
Lopes:Well, I’ve got one cycle’s experience, so I’ll let Senator Aguirre take this one. (Laughing)
Aguirre: It does affect it. Everyone’s jockeying to get their bills out and it can get pretty brutal. Everyone wants to take credit for legislation and you’re going to see a lot more podiums set up out there on the Capitol Mall because everyone wants to get their word in and get their picture in the paper. So, it will affect what we do down here.
Sometimes it can be pretty brutal. I see this as being one of those kinds of years, especially when you have a surplus and there’s money to spend and everyone wants to spend it their way.
Lopes:What Senator Aguirre just told you is the conventional wisdom inside this place, but I’d be very curious to know if people outside this place looking in actually see any difference in how we behave in an election- versus a non-election year. Because we think, looking at the inside, that there are in fact differences, but I’m not sure anybody else recognizes that.
Aguirre: Well, they probably won’t because they don’t know that Democrat bills were left off a calendar because a Republican had to have their bill heard. And you won’t know that unless a Democrat says to you, ‘My bill didn’t get heard because so-and-so’s bill got heard.’ A lot of that will happen.
Lopes: But, in my case, they couldn’t do much more than they did last year — or much less, depending on how you look at it.
Aguirre: And it’s too bad, because when we had a 15-15 split in the Senate, so much work got done equitably and we all sat around and discussed issues and it was to the best interest of the state. No longer was it just a Republican and a Democrat in a room fighting for position. It was, we’re trying to get things done for the state.
So, if I had any kind of a wish whatsoever, it is if we could go back in both houses to that. You would see government change — the face of government change. And that’s why I’m really disappointed with the redistricting, that something more didn’t come out of that with competitive districts, just because I’ve lived the 15-15 split in the Senate and, let me tell you, it made a difference to the way we did policy in this state and the state was served just wonderfully in that time, from my perspective.
Nobody’s ideas were more important. We all came together and shared ideas and were able to get issues done for both sides — for the conservative side, for the liberal side, for the moderate side. That’s what saddens me: I’ve seen what being treated fairly is and Democrats being chairs of committees, as well as Republicans.
And it’s so funny — when you saw that, you would have thought that, because a Democrat was finally the chair of a committee, they would finally let more Democratic bills go through. That didn’t happen. It really didn’t happen. I was like, ‘What’s wrong with you guys≠’ (Laughing) And I was one of those chairmen and I didn’t do it either!
If Republicans take over both houses [with a veto-proof majority], I’m fearful for the state, because they eat each other, they tear at each other once they get control and it becomes really chaotic up here. And Democrats, we’ll just kind of sit back and watch all the mayhem and it will be up to our governor to constantly be stopping things and that’s not fair to her.
I think that’s everything. Thank you very much for meeting with me today.
Aguirre: You’re welcome.
Lopes: You’re welcome.